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joyful
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 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Ion,
First of all, we dont know if we are saved or not until Jesus judges us. so this question is for Trinitarians. Trins believe that they are all saved as long as they believe in the trinity and cannot be lost no matter what.
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humbleservant
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Hi Joyful,
I'll tell you how I see it with regard to your response to this article.
1) We are tentatively saved while ever we remain within the teachings of God's word....THIS IS NOT OSAS.
I believe that those who have received the Holy Spirit certainly do know that they come within the category that I have just responded to in #1 above.
2) Why do you say this is for trinitarians? This article has nothing to do with this false doctrine.
Ion
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:28 am Post subject: |
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I'll repost the second last paragraph in the original article, as this will clarify the two most common objections to this viewpoint.
"The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the phrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. SUCH ACTIONS ARE PROOF THAT THEY WERE NEVER REDEEMED.
I personally disagree slightly with this sentiment, as I do believe that a "true christian" can lost their faith & thus lose salvation as part of the "first resurrection" if they look behind at the worldly life they had before accepting Christ into their life. For this reason I disagree with OSAS.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
Hi Joyful,
I'll tell you how I see it with regard to your response to this article.
1) We are tentatively saved while ever we remain within the teachings of God's word....THIS IS NOT OSAS.
I believe that those who have received the Holy Spirit certainly do know that they come within the category that I have just responded to in #1 above.
2) Why do you say this is for trinitarians? This article has nothing to do with this false doctrine.
Ion |
Trinitarians believe they dont lose salvation if they believe in the trinity. So if your information comes from trinity churches, I dont even bother to read it.
What is those organization's back ground?
thank you.
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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The following is said in the spirit of chistian love, without any thought of hostility in any way at all.
It would be good then if you only read the bible verses that are quoted, & please read them in context. If you use a reference or study bible, please also read the chain references as quoted in each verse.
I, at one time had the view of not talking with, or reading anything that came from trinitarians, but have come to realize the error of this view.
If we consider the Protestant reformation, almost without exception these were trinitarians. I have come to learn that the Holy Spirit will show us anything that is not from God.
If we had nothing to do with trinitarian writings, this would mean that we wouldn't use reference works such as Strongs, Youngs, Vines, etc, as ALL these & many others were put together by trinitarians.
I'll ask you a question, "Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a spirit person, as are YHWH & Jesus, or is it the spirit that issues from Them?"
One thing that I've come to realize also is that there will be a small number of "true christians" within most/all demoninations, including trinitarians. NOT the organization but the individual is what I'm refering to.
I firmly believe that the "Father of all" uses whom HE chooses, to get His work done, we only need to look at history to understand this.
Ion
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joyful
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
If we had nothing to do with trinitarian writings, this would mean that we wouldn't use reference works such as Strongs, Youngs, Vines, etc, as ALL these & many others were put together by trinitarians. |
I dont use any of those sources.
| Quote: |
| I'll ask you a question, "Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a spirit person, as are YHWH & Jesus, or is it the spirit that issues from Them?" |
It is the spirit that comes from Them.
| Quote: |
One thing that I've come to realize also is that there will be a small number of "true christians" within most/all demoninations, including trinitarians. NOT the organization but the individual is what I'm refering to.
I firmly believe that the "Father of all" uses whom HE chooses, to get His work done, we only need to look at history to understand this.
Ion |
Jesus tells us that we know them by their fruit. Trinitarian have been producing evil fruit. According to Jesus, they are not of God.
I can say confidently that all of us can lose salvation if we are not faithful to Jesus until the end. It is that simple. Trinitarians don't believe in being faithful to Jesus. They believe Jesus will do everything for them. If you talk about being faithful to Jesus, you will be called work-based-salvation and non-believer.
They are working against Jesus, spreading false salvation and helping satan using Jesus' name.
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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If you don't read anything produced by Trinitarian based organizations, why do you use the NIV, & any other English translation for that matter, as most were translated by, or for Trinitarian believers.
If we want to use totally non-Trinitarian books/bibles, then we MUST use only Jewish or Messianic Jewish publications.
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joyful
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
If you don't read anything produced by Trinitarian based organizations, why do you use the NIV, & any other English translation for that matter, as most were translated by, or for Trinitarian believers.
If we want to use totally non-Trinitarian books/bibles, then we MUST use only Jewish or Messianic Jewish publications. |
I just don't understand you Ion. You sound like very trinitarian. Jesus says to be as wise as serpent. God uses everyone and anything for His purpose. If He uses trinitarians to save His Word, I will not hesitate to use it.
Jesus says not to throw pearls to the pigs. I discern reading their material is wasting time and throwing the pearls. Jesus aslo says we know them by their fruit. Corrupt practices are their fruit. I don't trust them at all as Jesus' followers. I take Jesus' warnings and admonishment seriously and practice His teachings.
Trinitarians are working for their own institution, not for Jesus.
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Dear Sister,
Have you bothered to read the scriptures only in the original article I posted?
Have you checked up on the translators of the NIV yet?
And NO, I'm not a trinitarian, just a person who is not biased against others views, sometimes we miss so much due to being biased.
If it hadn't been for ones like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Simmons, & many others who were ALL trinitarians, the reformation would not have happened as & when it did. I just have the opinion that YHWH has used ALL sorts of people to get HIS will & purpose accomplished, & this leaves us little room to criticize others who appear to have a different understanding than ourselves.
Do you think that it's only NON-Triniarians that will receive salvation?
Ion
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joyful
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
Do you think that it's only NON-Triniarians that will receive salvation?
Ion |
All I know is that trin churches are not of God because they are not showing godly fruit. Jesus says we know them by their fruit. They are not interested in being obedient to Jesus but their own organzations.
I have two questions for you Ion:
1) Why do you think trin churches are so interested in secured salvation?
We all know that we will be saved if we are faithful to Jesus until the end. 2) Why dont they just take this simple fact?
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: |
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To answer your questions;
1) I don't think anything about trinitarian churches as such, what concerns me is people not religious organizations. As we both know, we cannot secure our own salvation....this is a free gift from YHWH due to the covenant of grace & not by works. We can only remain in that covenant by obedience to YHWH's & Jesus' commandments. This does not constitute works but obedience.
2) I can't answer this questian as I don't know, you'll need to ask a trinitarian.
BTW, are you aware that there are several different teachings about the trinity? Trinitarians don't all believe the same doctrine, they aren't united in their beliefs.
Ion
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joyful
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
To answer your questions;
1) I don't think anything about trinitarian churches as such, what concerns me is people not religious organizations. As we both know, we cannot secure our own salvation....this is a free gift from YHWH due to the covenant of grace & not by works. We can only remain in that covenant by obedience to YHWH's & Jesus' commandments.
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If you dont believe we cannot secure our own salvation, then why are you so concerned of what others say about the subject?
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| 2) I can't answer this questian as I don't know, you'll need to ask a trinitarian. |
We can figure out why if we open our eyes honestly to see what is going on on the surface. You dont seem to want to know the reality.
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BTW, are you aware that there are several different teachings about the trinity? Trinitarians don't all believe the same doctrine, they aren't united in their beliefs.
Ion |
I know that they dont even know their own doctrines. Only God knows how many.
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Firstly, the article was originally posted for a general discussion. This has not been the followed through, but what has happened is a disjointed discussion about trinitarians.
Secondly, you have not answered my question concerning the reading of the scriptures only, & the translating of the NIV bible along with most other mainstream translations.
BTW, seeing as how you are so anti-trinitarian (as I am also), I'd like you to show scriptural proof that the trinity is not a biblical doctrine.
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joyful
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
Firstly, the article was originally posted for a general discussion. This has not been the followed through, but what has happened is a disjointed discussion about trinitarians.
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My questions is to you that why are you so interested in if Christian can lose salvation or not? I already told you what I believe. And I dont care what ohters think.
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| Secondly, you have not answered my question concerning the reading of the scriptures only, & the translating of the NIV bible along with most other mainstream translations. |
What makes you think they are all mainstream scriptures?
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| BTW, seeing as how you are so anti-trinitarian (as I am also), I'd like you to show scriptural proof that the trinity is not a biblical doctrine. |
Why do you question me about this if you are not trinity believer?
Here is my answer. Trinity is flawed because God is not made up by three gods. It is that simple. I will not bothered by any of trin church doctrines. It is just complete waste of time. I dont believe they are true Christians. They are only playing "christians".
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Please supply scriptures to support your views regarding the falsity of the trinity doctrine.
Another thing that we are not authorised to do is blindly judge others as to their sincerity as christians.
As I said in an earlier post, I'm not interested in the religious/trinitarian organizations, but I am interested in the welfare of the people, particularly those who have been led asray by the crafty acts & speech of the clergy of ALL denominations, not just trinitarians. This includes BS's & JW's.
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joyful
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
| Please supply scriptures to support your views regarding the falsity of the trinity doctrine. |
Please read my thread "trinity" at doctrine board. I will not have another thread. thanks.
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| Another thing that we are not authorised to do is blindly judge others as to their sincerity as christians. |
Ok. I accept you faith. If you judge trinitarian churches as truthful organization, be my guest.
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| As I said in an earlier post, I'm not interested in the religious/trinitarian organizations, but I am interested in the welfare of the people, particularly those who have been led asray by the crafty acts & speech of the clergy of ALL denominations, not just trinitarians. This includes BS's & JW's. |
You seem to be trying to justify trinitarian churches. I will not accommodate their evil deeds. I know they are evil organizations. There is no camparison with BS and JWs. I don't agree with BS and JW in many ways but they are not evil Christians like trinitarians.
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Why are you not properly understanding what I'm saying? I have repeatedly said that trinitarian organizations are false/wrong/etc...but that the people who are within are not necessarily wrong & cannot be judged wrong as individuals.
I believe that ALL religious instituations are from the devil, we don't need organized religion.
Just for the record, I'm NOT trying to justify ANY church, why can't you understand these simple statements??????
I notice that you are avoiding answering the questions that I have now asked three times....WHY?
All I'm trying to do is help you reason from the scriptures.
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joyful
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
Why are you not properly understanding what I'm saying? I have repeatedly said that trinitarian organizations are false/wrong/etc...but that the people who are within are not necessarily wrong & cannot be judged wrong as individuals.
I believe that ALL religious instituations are from the devil, we don't need organized religion.
Just for the record, I'm NOT trying to justify ANY church, why can't you understand these simple statements?????? |
It is so frustrating to talk to you because I can sense that you are one one trinity believer. I am sorry. I just dont trust what you are saying. I have been in trin forums about 5 years. You sure talk just like them.
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| I notice that you are avoiding answering the questions that I have now asked three times....WHY? |
What didn't I answer? We surely not communicating. It seems to me you are maninpulating. It seems that you just don't want hear what I am saying.
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| All I'm trying to do is help you reason from the scriptures. |
I don't need your help on trying to understand the trinity. Trinity is evil doctrine. I dont debate evil doctrines. If you want to see why this is evil, take a look at trinity doctrine as I alrady told you. Take it or leave it.
Why don't you ask Ronald about the trinity if you don't want to read my thread. I agree with him 100%.
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humbleservant
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to put it this way, but I'm not the one with the problem. You are the one that has made a very interesting article into a trinitarian debate, one that is totally counter productive.
Yoiu know the questions that I've asked you & that you are not replying to.
You may as well lock this thread, as I'll no longer reply to your posts.
BTW, I don.t need to ask Ronald or anyone else about the trinity, as I am not of the trinitarian view!!!!!!
farewell
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joyful
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| humbleservant wrote: |
You may as well lock this thread, as I'll no longer reply to your posts.
BTW, I don.t need to ask Ronald or anyone else about the trinity, as I am not of the trinitarian view!!!!!!
farewell |
You finally got my point. I thought you never get it. I don't trust you any more as Christian. You haven't been honest.
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