Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: The word of God, the holy spirit - Where is the kingdom?
Jesus preached without reliably having a piece of text with him to quote from, neither did the apostles in Jesus time. Yet, they knew what to say when they needed to say it. They spoke without intellectualizing, there were rarely any sort of learned men or scribes among them. How many of us that realise our spiritual need, are today rich in earthly intellect, money, wisdom or status? Yet without these riches, the apostles preached. Their intellectual discussions were short and nothing short of swift refutations of their opposition. It was God humbling the strong by the weak. God humbles the rich by using the poor and the wise men he strangles in their own wisdom. And yet without these riches of intellect, wealth and reasoning, the apostles became aware of the kingdom and realised it to some degree. For some reason, the bible itself as many spiritual teachings insists that the spirit of truth is not only with us, but inside of us.
Why do Christians think of the kingdom of God as some sort of rescue mission from Jesus that is going to restore the planet, even though Jesus himself states the kingdom is not outside of us, but within? Even Jesus tells us we do not see him if we look outside of ourselves, for lo when anyone says he is here or there we will miss him. If we look to the earth, we will not find him. Yet he will come in the heavens like lightning and so it logically follows that anyone is staring at the earth, he will miss this lightning bolt and lo not know where it was. Why would the heavens be literal? Why would it be literal if jesus spoke spiritually not materially and strangely not normally? Our Christ Jesus does not come to us in any physical place, but in heaven which is not physical.
The truth does not come from anything outside of ourselves, for the wealth of God of his kingdom is within us. Therefor we should ultimately become absolutely independant of anything on earth, without staves, scrip, bread, money or two coats apiece.
If you bring forth what is within you", Jesus says in the Gospel of Gospel of Thomas "what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is in you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you". Those with ears had better realise what the Kingdom of God is, really soon!
only in heaven is the word of God holy, on earth everything rots and withers. We can ultimately not depend on the earth to get us to heaven. _________________ This Friend is the Spirit of Truth...he has been staying with you and will even be in you!
On the deepest level of our being, we speak in a language that cannot be purely expressed in human language. At the deepest level of our being, we simply have absolute truth. We recognize this absolute truth through intuition, which is within us (the kingdom of God). We cannot describe truth accuratly through human language so we should not limit truth (God) to it (no graven image, idol).
Simply put we do not need anything to know truth. Simply speaking we already know it (but have forgotten that we know).
Therefor we do not need to worry about anything on earth or about yesterday or tomorrow or any book, fashion, diet etc... but only about what intuition (holy spirit) inclines us to. It is impossible to properly describe in words what i am attempting to impart to you, you must atleast have recognized Gods calling from within you, from Gods kingdom inside of you to know what i mean. Intuitively, simply KNOWING some things. The inner thing from which you (may) have spoken when you simply KNEW that christian support of military is WRONG no matter how many intellectual words are applied to it. The inner voice that told some people not to go to work on 9/11, not to go to on crashing airplanes, that told Jesus to do what he did and which is telling you what to do which you in part obey.
This voice is the holy spirit and the spirit of truth that is with us and even within us. This is the part of you that is in heaven and thus Jesus tells us to pray for the above to be also below. Kingdom come as above so below, within. This is the voice that gives you the words when you need them: Mark 13:11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
You say we CAN have the kingdom of God, yet Jesus says the kingdom is already with(in). The kingdom already is, as Christ Jesus said. You will not realize this when people point out a place on earth and say the kingdom is there or here. The inner realization of this is like a thunder in heaven, a SUDDEN EPIPHANY, an AHA MOMENT... like AH!! I FINALLY UNDERSTAND... which is like sudden THUNDER in HEAVEN which in this case is in your own spiritual (heavenly) being. _________________ This Friend is the Spirit of Truth...he has been staying with you and will even be in you!
do you understand my 2 most recent topics in the controversy section of Paradise Cafe? _________________ This Friend is the Spirit of Truth...he has been staying with you and will even be in you!
We should not elevate anything on the earth nor anything that a man says to the level of immutability or holy, including the bible. The book is riddled with problems, not least of which is the idea that it was compiled by people under holy spirit?! The bible makes no claim to be holy and how can it? It by definition cannot because it is compiled of literature that cannot refer to any bible, because there wasnt any bible before the bible was compiled. Any such claim even in the bible is only significant for the book/letter/gospel it is in (and a perhaps a few other scriptures as well, but not the whole Bible).
At Moses we see that he came down with a list of commandments for his people, but when he came down he looking at the golden calf ritual realized the commandments he would give to his people would not be accepted, for how can anyone grasp the formless and infinite truth about God if he sees it as finite and in the form of an idol? The people were not ready for the dose of truth they were being given. So moses got angry and smashed the tablets and convinced God to come up with something more palatable to the Israelites low state of consciousness. Thus we have the 10 commandments and the image of an angry and violent God willing to condemn at the drop of a hat. These commandment mention not least of which, that murder is forbidden and gives no exceptions under which conditions this commandment could be broken! But the Israelites were all too happy to follow their leaders in a genocidal unholy war for the promised land! Whatever happened to an omnibenevolant Jehovah? Is there any meaning to the phrase of a loving Jehovah, if he authorizes genocide? The genocide not just of soldiers in battle but of women, children, elderly and even cattle.
Should we really take every interpretation we make of the bible as the infallible word of God? Considdering that anything related to the Bible must be made by a human being, how can it be infallible? Should we limit our spirituality to a book that itself states does not contain the fullness of Jesus teachings? Should we get spirituality only from the bible where Jesus himself states he could not teach us some things, because we could not bear them? Should we limit ourselves to a book that has verifyable been mistranslated, added to and substracted from? A book that has had thousands of years to be corrupted by people with the worst intentions? From a book that was written not just in a single culture that was vastly different, that was written over thousands of years with massive lingual and cultural differences between all of the books?
Should we limit ourselves to literature that has been dead and rotting for atleast 1500 years? And how would the bible be any better now, how could it ever be?
Did Jesus not state he would be with us untill the end of this time? Did he himself state that the Kingdom of God is inside each of us, and that there is no temple, but that we are the living temples of God? Was it not the Christ that stated that he is the only way? (Why then, do we stick not to the Jesus that is with us, but to a book he never wrote?) What is the clinging to a book of men for then, even though Jesus made no mention of this would be holy book? Jesus did not write the bible, nor had any inclination to, and why would he ever? He kept delivering the living word even after his body was killed, why then does he seem absent for the last 2000 years, except perhaps because we have become so out of touch with his reality that we wouldn't tell him apart from a mosquito even if he bit us in the nose. The bible worshippers at Jesus time obviously didn't know him or recognized much of anything he had to say. Peter even denied him! The disciples didnt have a clue they werern't going to liberate the Jews from Rome, untill the Jews crucified him!
Is it possible we have been tricked into discarding the keys of knowledge by believing that anything a Messiah could possibly ever say would never contradict the present-day interpretations of the Bible of the time, which is exactly what the pharisees did to their Jews? Is it a blasphemy to think we are the sons and daughters of God and that we have the spirit of truth in us? (And thus, can know truth from within our souls?) A blasphemy to think we can know the Father as Jesus did (which he prayed for)? Is it a blasphemy to think, we must carry our own responsebility, instead of relaying it to a book? Is it blasphemy to think, we can have the living word of God, instead of one that has been dead and rotting for thousands of years...?
Blessings
spice, this is too much to read for me. I will let BIN handle this.
Jesus preached without reliably having a piece of text with him to quote from, neither did the apostles in Jesus time
They didn't have written texts with them, no, but they did have the Old Testament. Young Jews were required to memorize basically the whole OT in school.
Jesus is interesting in that although He would have the most right to "create" Scripture, He spent loads of time quoting the OT, even more than the NT writers.
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Post: #1 Books of Men: the unholy Bible
We should not elevate anything on the earth nor anything that a man says to the level of immutability or holy, including the bible. The book is riddled with problems, not least of which is the idea that it was compiled by people under holy spirit?! The bible makes no claim to be holy and how can it? It by definition cannot because it is compiled of literature that cannot refer to any bible, because there wasnt any bible before the bible was compiled. Any such claim even in the bible is only significant for the book/letter/gospel it is in (and a perhaps a few other scriptures as well, but not the whole Bible).
Paul attests to the divine inspiration and quality of MOST of the Bible.
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At Moses we see that he came down with a list of commandments for his people, but when he came down he looking at the golden calf ritual realized the commandments he would give to his people would not be accepted, for how can anyone grasp the formless and infinite truth about God if he sees it as finite and in the form of an idol? The people were not ready for the dose of truth they were being given. So moses got angry and smashed the tablets and convinced God to come up with something more palatable to the Israelites low state of consciousness. Thus we have the 10 commandments and the image of an angry and violent God willing to condemn at the drop of a hat. These commandment mention not least of which, that murder is forbidden and gives no exceptions under which conditions this commandment could be broken! But the Israelites were all too happy to follow their leaders in a genocidal unholy war for the promised land! Whatever happened to an omnibenevolant Jehovah? Is there any meaning to the phrase of a loving Jehovah, if he authorizes genocide? The genocide not just of soldiers in battle but of women, children, elderly and even cattle.
Should we really take every interpretation we make of the bible as the infallible word of God? Considdering that anything related to the Bible must be made by a human being, how can it be infallible? Should we limit our spirituality to a book that itself states does not contain the fullness of Jesus teachings? Should we get spirituality only from the bible where Jesus himself states he could not teach us some things, because we could not bear them? Should we limit ourselves to a book that has verifyable been mistranslated, added to and substracted from? A book that has had thousands of years to be corrupted by people with the worst intentions? From a book that was written not just in a single culture that was vastly different, that was written over thousands of years with massive lingual and cultural differences between all of the books?
Should we limit ourselves to literature that has been dead and rotting for atleast 1500 years? And how would the bible be any better now, how could it ever be?
Did Jesus not state he would be with us untill the end of this time? Did he himself state that the Kingdom of God is inside each of us, and that there is no temple, but that we are the living temples of God? Was it not the Christ that stated that he is the only way? (Why then, do we stick not to the Jesus that is with us, but to a book he never wrote?) What is the clinging to a book of men for then, even though Jesus made no mention of this would be holy book? Jesus did not write the bible, nor had any inclination to, and why would he ever? He kept delivering the living word even after his body was killed, why then does he seem absent for the last 2000 years, except perhaps because we have become so out of touch with his reality that we wouldn't tell him apart from a mosquito even if he bit us in the nose. The bible worshippers at Jesus time obviously didn't know him or recognized much of anything he had to say. Peter even denied him! The disciples didnt have a clue they werern't going to liberate the Jews from Rome, untill the Jews crucified him!
Is it possible we have been tricked into discarding the keys of knowledge by believing that anything a Messiah could possibly ever say would never contradict the present-day interpretations of the Bible of the time, which is exactly what the pharisees did to their Jews? Is it a blasphemy to think we are the sons and daughters of God and that we have the spirit of truth in us? (And thus, can know truth from within our souls?) A blasphemy to think we can know the Father as Jesus did (which he prayed for)? Is it a blasphemy to think, we must carry our own responsebility, instead of relaying it to a book? Is it blasphemy to think, we can have the living word of God, instead of one that has been dead and rotting for thousands of years...?
Blessings
...what is your thesis, here? That the Bible isn't a reliable guide to living because it paints the picture of a sadistic murderer?
That some "internal truth" (IE nirvana) is?
If you wouldn't mind, I'd be fine taking your argument head-on, piece by piece (I see in this post several misassumptions), but if we're to do this without going crazy, we need to understand where we're coming from.
Paul attests to the divine inspiration and quality of MOST of the Bible.
Are pauls writings absolutely true?
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what is your thesis, here? That the Bible isn't a reliable guide to living because it paints the picture of a sadistic murderer?
yes and well not neceserrily so for everyone. This is very individual, you can read the bible and depending on what you read into it the words will dance around the page like Ninjas to suit you very much like wishfull thinking or like a self-fullfilling prophecy. The bible is not the ultimate manual for the redemption of mankind. It shows some of the steps, but it is that a stepping stone to holy spirit for very few, which came upon the disciples at pentecost.
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...what is your thesis, here?
Have you not pieced it together from previous postings?
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That some "internal truth" (IE nirvana) is?
Are you saying there is not?
What is your thesis? _________________ This Friend is the Spirit of Truth...he has been staying with you and will even be in you!
Paul attests to the divine inspiration and quality of MOST of the Bible.
Are pauls writings absolutely true?
Are you qustioning accuracy or inspiration?
If you mean "inspired," then yes. A man who many Christians accepted as an apostle, even though he was the foremost man who wanted their downfall.
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what is your thesis, here? That the Bible isn't a reliable guide to living because it paints the picture of a sadistic murderer?
yes and well not neceserrily so for everyone. This is very individual, you can read the bible and depending on what you read into it the words will dance around the page like Ninjas to suit you very much like wishfull thinking or like a self-fullfilling prophecy. The bible is not the ultimate manual for the redemption of mankind. It shows some of the steps, but it is that a stepping stone to holy spirit for very few, which came upon the disciples at pentecost.
Well, the disciples who experienced that Holy Spirit wrote this book you are discrediting; they followed Christ, who said that they would be baptized in that way, and then they chronicled the ministry of Jesus which they were following.
So, what was the issue again?
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...what is your thesis, here?
Have you not pieced it together from previous postings?
Theses shouldn't come in pieces. But I think I get it.
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That some "internal truth" (IE nirvana) is?
Are you saying there is not?
To a degree there is ("the kingdom of God is within you," "God judges the heart," and "conscience" are all Biblical concepts). So what?
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What is your thesis?
I have none: it's your argument we are discussing here, not mine.
The question is not where is the Kingdom, but what is the Kingdom; _________________ reslight.net/forum - bibletoday.com- Divineplan.org - mostholyfaith.com -
Are you qustioning accuracy or inspiration?
If you mean "inspired," then yes. A man who many Christians accepted as an apostle, even though he was the foremost man who wanted their downfall.
Have you not questioned the accuracy or inspiration of the apostles or apostle paul? That they had very intimate interactions with the holy spirit and with Jesus does not at all mean they lived totally according to the truth or knew the whole truth. Jesus continually reprimanded his apostles on an almost consistent basis for their lack of knowledge. Even peter the rock tried to keep Jesus from fullfilling his mission, denied Christ 3 times and gave up on any type of ministry when he returned to his life as a fishermen. The apostles had quite an argument about the greatest among them and did often not understand what Jesus said. The apostles did not get it that Jesus was going to be resurrected but only understood what happened after it did. The lack of knowledge was not instantly resolved when Jesus ascended to heaven and there was no coherent movement or church that he left behind and definitively not one that is still with us today let alone any set of text like the bible that was accepted by the early apostles let alone Jesus himself. Jesus did continually quote from the Israelite Torah but this does not at all mean he accepted it in its entirety for the same reason as people that quote the 10 commandments to christians/jews are hardly always religious. The torah was incomplete, Moses could not give Jesus mount sermon. Jesus continually added to the scriptures and continually contradicted and corrected the scriptural doctrines of the time and there is also very much to be said that is not in scripture today.
The bible itself is the most mystical book on the on the face of this planet and Jesus the most mystical teacher but Christians will have none of it. Jesus continually spoke in parables and apparant paradoxes that could not at all be interpreted normally. Jesus emphasized simpleness, humility yet also honesty, zeal and perseverance, the connection with holy spirit and also important that he is always with us.
Yet Christians put Jesus on a pedastle waaaaaaaaaaay up in heaven so very far away from them thinking themselves undesserving of Gods unconditional love (and the idea that you can be undesserving of unconditional love is a paradox) putting God and Gods kingdom yet even farther away living in churches where every sunday entire groups often go into perverse orgies of being miserable sinners seperated from God and yet also that they cannot do anything whatsoever to improve the situation or that it is unnecerry to do so, This is not at all what Jesus taught and yet you can make a "biblical" doctrine teaching it because all material things including the written words of God can be perverted by the spirit of anti christ.
Even though even the bible itself states that Jesus is with us, the kingdom of God is in us, the spirit truth is within us and God also is within each and every one of us. There is not a thing created without a piece of God in it. In spite of that you can use free choices to protest against free choices, or use free speech to protest free speech, which is what some imams for example are doing.
Yet if you do not understand earthly matters, how will you understand if i speak about heavenly matters? For that reason the multitudes first need understand the basics. One such basic Jesus teaching is that you love others as yourself. Note that the verse is NOT love others AS MUCH AS yourself, but AS yourself. Then how can anyone love others as themself, unless we are on some level eachother? I mean that we are eachother in the sense some of us are feet or hands or heart or kidneys in the body of Christ, but we are still of the same body. There are many leaves on a tree, but all the leaves are part of that tree. The tree is in part its leaves and vica versa. And yet also the tree is part of the forest and the forest part of the tree. The earth is a part of the forest and the forest part of it and so forth and so forth. There are many levels to our consciousness some higher or lower. Meditators continually engage in the study of these by sitting around and apparantly doing nothing and in such feats many have gained valuable insights. Yet when they gained these insights and brought into the material word through word or writ, they were corrupted to some degree and increasingly so until someone again managed to in some way dial into heaven and get things a relatively straightened out.
Mohammed for example was there to improve the arabic community of his time which was very violent and very repressive to woman. Mohammed himself never beat any woman, altough one of his woman beat him. This is a message which is conveniently overlooked by many muslims. What happened to the abrahamic religions is continually that the connection to heavenly truth and thus the hope for improvement was lost every time because it was presumed it was the final message.
Jesus specificly left out the "as much" when he said love others as much as yourself. When we hurt others, we hurt ourselves. This is why Jesus said the least you do to these little ones, you do to me. The holy spirit is a universal spirit that is permiates even all the way to souls (that put themselves) in hell and it was this spirit that was speaking through Jesus when it told the apostles to eat its flesh and drink its blood. The apostles were quite in a catch 22 if they were to eat Jesus. But it was not Jesus speaking, but the holy spirit. The lords supper is a ritual where we recognize the need to partake of the holy spirit and that we need to unite with it are we to manifest the Kingdom of God as above so below.
The spirit of anti-christ of what is commonly called the ego at this day (in its negative, selfish, isolationist sense) and it is founded on the premise of denying God (which you can call by many names) and keeping you seperate from God (all the while, the seperation is illusory).
There are numerous practices that have been created so people can start recognizing the ego and taking authority away from it. When someone with holy spirit comes along and challenges the illusions of the ego there are many religious people that will get very angry because of a deep seated fear from the ego. Which makes it clear to anyone with the eyes to see, they do not have the perfect love that casts out all fear. The holy spirit for example is what inclines many Jehovahs Witnesses to ditch the WT magazines and preach to people "from the heart" and the ego is often that which reasons one should adhere to the WT magazines because "the heart of man is full of evil". Fear can be synonymous with anti-christ and it is a very reliable rule, NEVER to make any choice from fear. Fear is of the anti-christ and it takes on many forms, such as anger and jealousy. Fear also expresses itself as Obsession (often mistaken for Love) which is really the fear of losing or not having something.
To get to heaven you must take responsebility which is something religious people generally hate to do. In doing so that responsebility will be redirected to the spirit of the anti-christ and that spirit will never use it to uplift anyone. This is why it is so important to be responsible.
As long as you let the ego make choices for you, you grant it authority and because of that you then do no longer have the authority to accept the perfect unconditional love of God which casts out the anti-christ with all its terrors. _________________ This Friend is the Spirit of Truth...he has been staying with you and will even be in you!
To get to heaven you must take responsebility which is something religious people generally hate to do.
Absotely.
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In doing so that responsebility will be redirected to the spirit of the anti-christ and that spirit will never use it to uplift anyone. This is why it is so important to be responsible.
yes.
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As long as you let the ego make choices for you, you grant it authority and because of that you then do no longer have the authority to accept the perfect unconditional love of God which casts out the anti-christ with all its terrors.
Spice, God's love is not unconditional. It is conditional. We have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior to inherit God's kingdom.
Spice, God's love is not unconditional. It is conditional. We have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior to inherit God's kingdom.
the bible does not say there is a condition to gods love
there is to being saved which is to accept Jesus as savior, but this is not a condition for Gods love.
It is also an oxymoron to think this condition would be universal, because everyone prior to the israelites would be excluded from receiving Gods love in addition to everyone that never heard of Jesus. This would make for a rather limited God who does not at all provide a way out for everyone or wants the best for everyone. This is not a God that makes sense if he is to be all loving. _________________ This Friend is the Spirit of Truth...he has been staying with you and will even be in you!
Last edited by spiceant on Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Spice, God's love is not unconditional. It is conditional. We have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior to inherit God's kingdom.
the bible does not say there is a condition to gods love
there is to being saved
And that is probably the most misunderstood concept in Christianity. _________________ reslight.net/forum - bibletoday.com- Divineplan.org - mostholyfaith.com -
It is a small parable that there is only one condition for Gods unconditional love and you can find it in the beginning of the bible. Jehovah won't force his love on anyone and if someone rejects it or has any type of belief that states he or she should not receive Gods love, God wil not provide his love beacuse this would violate the choice of that person. Adam & Eve chose to hide from God and consequently his love. Almost everyone walking the earth must learn to receive it again. We must accept God as our father and his love too, and this is very hard for many people, because of a myriad of reasons. Everyone that is ready for it should pray for it. It is the only love that will cast out all fear and set us free. _________________ This Friend is the Spirit of Truth...he has been staying with you and will even be in you!
Are gods love and gods kingdom two seperate things? _________________ This Friend is the Spirit of Truth...he has been staying with you and will even be in you!
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