Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Somewhere beyond here...
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject:
It isn't true that by supporting something that is part of this world, we are of this world. As a "perverse example", you support eating (I'm sure); that is a worldly thing. God created the world, and everything in it is good, even if it is being used for an evil purpose. He also supported the military with his repeated commands in the Old Testament to kill large groups of people.
Now, I don't have anything to say about what the military is doing now; I don't pay attention to such things. But a military cannot be a bad thing in itself - because there was a time when God ordered its use. _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
It isn't true that by supporting something that is part of this world, we are of this world. As a "perverse example", you support eating (I'm sure); that is a worldly thing. God created the world, and everything in it is good, even if it is being used for an evil purpose.
God's law is all about moral things.
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He also supported the military with his repeated commands in the Old Testament to kill large groups of people.
He is God and He knows who is evil or not. We human are not God. We have no right to kill another human being.
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Now, I don't have anything to say about what the military is doing now; I don't pay attention to such things. But a military cannot be a bad thing in itself - because there was a time when God ordered its use.
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Somewhere beyond here...
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:48 am Post subject:
joyful wrote:
God's law is all about moral things.
We had better define "worldly." Are you saying that worldly things are always evil, and if it isn't evil, it isn't worldly? Or did God create some worldly things? If God created something worldly, then he declared it "very good" in Genesis. If not, then I wouldn't consider the military worldly.
joyful wrote:
He is God and He knows who is evil or not. We human are not God. We have no right to kill another human being.
But God did not do it himself - he commanded humans to do it. He did this in other cases as well (Deuteronomy 13:5). I would agree that we should not kill without God's consent, but we seem to have God's consent quite often. _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
We had better define "worldly." Are you saying that worldly things are always evil, and if it isn't evil, it isn't worldly? Or did God create some worldly things? If God created something worldly, then he declared it "very good" in Genesis. If not, then I wouldn't consider the military worldly.
I think you better read the Gospel. I don't have time to spoon feed you. You obviousely don't understand what is worldy or not.
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But God did not do it himself - he commanded humans to do it. He did this in other cases as well (Deuteronomy 13:5). I would agree that we should not kill without God's consent, but we seem to have God's consent quite often.
Yes, He commanded in OT times. He is not commanding war in this time. He is not commanding George Bush to have military and kill America's enemies.
Do you know that Jesus loves all His followers? Do you know that Jesus' followers are in all over the world even in your enemy's countries???
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Somewhere beyond here...
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:42 am Post subject:
joyful wrote:
Viperlord wrote:
We had better define "worldly." Are you saying that worldly things are always evil, and if it isn't evil, it isn't worldly? Or did God create some worldly things? If God created something worldly, then he declared it "very good" in Genesis. If not, then I wouldn't consider the military worldly.
I think you better read the Gospel. I don't have time to spoon feed you. You obviousely don't understand what is worldy or not.
I was asking for your definition - but since you haven't provided it, I will provide my own.
I see Peter as the most violent of the apostles. When he confronted Ananias and Sapphira, they died before him, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Granted, it was God doing the killing - but this is in the New Testament. Killing is not wrong, even now.
George Bush might be doing wrong, or he might not. I don't want to be the judge of that. But it is not wrong to have a military.
I see that that can be interpreted as a "knife" at a stretch. But that Greek word is not translated anything but "sword" anywhere in the new Testament - and it often refers to killing humans. Romans 13:4 even goes so far as to state that the government should act with violence against wrongdoers. _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
Worldly things are simply material things - there is nothing evil about them. Instead, worldly things should be used for God's glory.
It is very clear that trinitarians are not using it for God's glory by Jesus' standard.
[quote]Yes, Jesus loves all his followers. Jesus loves everyone, even his enemies. But it is possible to love, and still kill.
I know thats how trinitarians distort Jesus' command. Jesus came to earth to show us good example. He and His disciples did not harm nor kill anyone. do you get that?
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I see Peter as the most violent of the apostles. When he confronted Ananias and Sapphira, they died before him, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Granted, it was God doing the killing - but this is in the New Testament. Killing is not wrong, even now.
God killed, not Peter.
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George Bush might be doing wrong, or he might not. I don't want to be the judge of that. But it is not wrong to have a military.
He is judging other nations as evil and giving order to kill your enemy. How convenient of you.
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I see that that can be interpreted as a "knife" at a stretch. But that Greek word is not translated anything but "sword" anywhere in the new Testament - and it often refers to killing humans. Romans 13:4 even goes so far as to state that the government should act with violence against wrongdoers.
Which disciples killed whom???? We are talking about christians, not romans nor government. don't change the subject.
You don't have the heart of God nor Jesus'. As long as your mentality is of this world you will never understand Jesus and you will change around the Scripture for your likings.
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Somewhere beyond here...
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject:
joyful wrote:
It is very clear that trinitarians are not using it for God's glory by Jesus' standard.
It is not at all clear. Prove it. In any case, there is nothing to be gained by saying that it is a sin to use worldly things.
joyful wrote:
I know thats how trinitarians distort Jesus' command. Jesus came to earth to show us good example. He and His disciples did not harm nor kill anyone. do you get that?
God killed, not Peter.
We are to be like our master. God killed two people that he loved. Therefore, it is possible to kill and yet love.
joyful wrote:
He is judging other nations as evil and giving order to kill your enemy. How convenient of you.
Sorry - not so much convenient, as out of my depth. I don't have a good enough reason to call his specific actions good or evil, and you haven't yet convinced me that all killing is evil.
joyful wrote:
Which disciples killed whom???? We are talking about christians, not romans nor government. don't change the subject.
So you believe christians should not kill, but nonchristians should? George Bush is the government. If the government is right to kill, then George Bush can be right to kill.
joyful wrote:
You don't have the heart of God nor Jesus'. As long as your mentality is of this world you will never understand Jesus and you will change around the Scripture for your likings.
Now you tell me I am not a Christian! It is all very well to debate points of doctrine, but I have accepted Christ as my savior. Even if I am wrong, I am saved. _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
It is not at all clear. Prove it. In any case, there is nothing to be gained by saying that it is a sin to use worldly things.
The militay is clear case. Secular have military because they want to protect their own country's welfare. It is a selfish institution. Jesus does not approve of selfishness.
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We are to be like our master. God killed two people that he loved. Therefore, it is possible to kill and yet love.
It is a lame excuse. We are not as righteous and wise as God so we dont have right to kill anyone: who are you to say that one person deserves to live more than another? God???
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Sorry - not so much convenient, as out of my depth. I don't have a good enough reason to call his specific actions good or evil, and you haven't yet convinced me that all killing is evil.
You don't want to listen what I have to say. I just told you that Jesus' followers are everywhere and Jesus would not give approval to kill any of His followers.
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So you believe christians should not kill, but nonchristians should? George Bush is the government. If the government is right to kill, then George Bush can be right to kill.
The world will do what it does: as far as Christians, Jesus says His followers are not of this world and the government is of this world. You don't undertand Jesus because you are still of this world. Jesus says if you love this world more than Him you are not worthy of Him. Look it up. It is there.
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Now you tell me I am not a Christian! It is all very well to debate points of doctrine, but I have accepted Christ as my savior. Even if I am wrong, I am saved.
What does "I accepted Christ as my savior" mean if you don't obey what He teaches? Nothing. Your actions attest to the insincerity of your words.
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Somewhere beyond here...
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:37 am Post subject:
joyful wrote:
The militay is clear case. Secular have military because they want to protect their own country's welfare. It is a selfish institution. Jesus does not approve of selfishness.
It is selfish to eat! Does this mean that you should not eat? Humility is not to think nothing of yourself - it is only to love your neighbor as yourself. The military protects not only yourself, but your neighbor.
joyful wrote:
It is a lame excuse. We are not as righteous and wise as God so we dont have right to kill anyone: who are you to say that one person deserves to live more than another? God???
I don't believe that we should kill without the government's approval - that is what "Do not murder" means in the Ten Commandments. However, the government does have the right to kill.
I have covered all of the logical points:
-God ordered humans to kill in the Old Testament. Therefore, it is not true that only God should kill and not humans.
-God killed humans in the New Testament. Therefore, it is not true that killing is wrong since Jesus' time.
There is no reason why killing should have become wrong for humans only after Jesus' time.
I am not God, but in the USA, I am part of the government. The government does not bear the sword for nothing... it is to punish wrongdoers, and to defend the righteous. The sword is a weapon of death.
Therefore, the government is right to kill to defend its citizens.
joyful wrote:
You don't want to listen what I have to say. I just told you that Jesus' followers are everywhere and Jesus would not give approval to kill any of His followers.
Why not? Christians should not fear death. It is nonchristians who go to hell when they die. "To live is Christ, to die is gain." If God was not willing to let his followers die, they would not die.
joyful wrote:
The world will do what it does: as far as Christians, Jesus says His followers are not of this world and the government is of this world. You don't undertand Jesus because you are still of this world. Jesus says if you love this world more than Him you are not worthy of Him. Look it up. It is there.
I know of that verse. I love my God above all - nothing shall snatch me out of his hand. I do not need to act out of fear. I will believe things because they are true - not for any other reason.
The government might be part of this world, but this world was created by God at the beginning, and just because Satan has power over it does not mean that everything that is part of it is evil. Romans 13:1-7 states that God supports the government, and the government has a right to kill.
joyful wrote:
What does "I accepted Christ as my savior" mean if you don't obey what He teaches? Nothing. Your actions attest to the insincerity of your words.
[quote=John 3:16]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.[/quote]
It means that - no more, no less. Whether I obey is between me and my master. My actions attest to nothing; you cannot see them. I can see that you will attack me for hiding in secrecy - but I have a promise to uphold. You have only my words. _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
It is selfish to eat! Does this mean that you should not eat? Humility is not to think nothing of yourself - it is only to love your neighbor as yourself. The military protects not only yourself, but your neighbor.
Eating is not selfish. come on. You are talking like spoiled teen ager. God created us to live, without food we kill ourselves which ungodly thing to do. When you are killing your enemy, you are killing your neighbor. I hope you are not one of the leaders of church. You sure don't fit to be Christian leader. And again, anything is ok in the trinitarian churches as long as you believe in trinty.
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I don't believe that we should kill without the government's approval - that is what "Do not murder" means in the Ten Commandments. However, the government does have the right to kill.
Jesus came to earth to show us the way and He did not harm nor killed anyone. Read the Gospel, without preconceived notion of your church theologies.
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-God ordered humans to kill in the Old Testament. Therefore, it is not true that only God should kill and not humans.
-God killed humans in the New Testament. Therefore, it is not true that killing is wrong since Jesus' time.
Only God did and not human, even Jesus did not kill anyone. Stop being so arogant and wicked..
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There is no reason why killing should have become wrong for humans only after Jesus' time.
the same as the above.
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I am not God, but in the USA, I am part of the government. The government does not bear the sword for nothing... it is to punish wrongdoers, and to defend the righteous. The sword is a weapon of death.
You are favoring your wicked gevernment because you don't have Jesus' heart and dont understand Jesus. If government is not in line with Jesus, you should not obey any government. You are also ingnoring(I believe you don't even know) that Daniel and his three companions did not bow to the king because he commanded something ungodly. Read the book of Daniel to find out.
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Therefore, the government is right to kill to defend its citizens.
You are proving your ignornance of the Scripture.
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Why not? Christians should not fear death. It is nonchristians who go to hell when they die. "To live is Christ, to die is gain." If God was not willing to let his followers die, they would not die.
You are dying for your selfish desires and not for Jesus. Get real, dude.
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I know of that verse. I love my God above all - nothing shall snatch me out of his hand. I do not need to act out of fear. I will believe things because they are true - not for any other reason.
You don't love God and Jesus. Your master is your government. You are only worshipping God with flattering lips. shame on you.
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The government might be part of this world, but this world was created by God at the beginning, and just because Satan has power over it does not mean that everything that is part of it is evil. Romans 13:1-7 states that God supports the government, and the government has a right to kill.
Blah, blah, blah. liies, lies and lies.
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It means that - no more, no less. Whether I obey is between me and my master. My actions attest to nothing; you cannot see them. I can see that you will attack me for hiding in secrecy - but I have a promise to uphold. You have only my words.
blah, blah, blah. lies, lies and lies.
good day satan's associate.
I pray that you repent and start serving God instead of satan before it is too late.
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Somewhere beyond here...
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject:
joyful wrote:
Eating is not selfish. come on. You are talking like spoiled teen ager. God created us to live, without food we kill ourselves which ungodly thing to do.
Yes, starving to death would be ungodly. However, you eat for your own benefit - that is selfish. We need not be overly concerned for our personal needs - but we do need to give them some attention. Something being selfish does not make it wrong.
joyful wrote:
When you are killing your enemy, you are killing your neighbor.
True. But again, it is possible to love and yet kill. God loved Ananias and Sapphira. He also killed them.
joyful wrote:
I hope you are not one of the leaders of church. You sure don't fit to be Christian leader. And again, anything is ok in the trinitarian churches as long as you believe in trinty.
I'm a mere college student. But in my experience, the Trinity is not the only thing the Trinitarians care about. The Virgin Birth and the Resurrection are important as well (you can tell by the capitalization ).
joyful wrote:
Jesus came to earth to show us the way and He did not harm nor killed anyone.
Indeed. He also did not turn on a computer. That Jesus did not do it does not mean that we should not.
joyful wrote:
Read the Gospel, without preconceived notion of your church theologies.
Defeat my philosophical basis. You say to take it as it is meant - but you really mean that I should take it the way you tell me to take it. My knowledge of English and logic is all the preconceived notion I need.
joyful wrote:
Only God did and not human, even Jesus did not kill anyone. Stop being so arogant and wicked..
Ad hominenem! It does not good to insult me. But there is no reason that killing whould be any different in the New Testament than in the Old Testament - God does not change, and he did not tell us that the law was changing for us. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.
joyful wrote:
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There is no reason why killing should have become wrong for humans only after Jesus' time.
the same as the above.
But it's particularly important that there is no reason for the law to change. It would not change randomly...
joyful wrote:
You are favoring your wicked gevernment because you don't have Jesus' heart and dont understand Jesus. If government is not in line with Jesus, you should not obey any government. You are also ingnoring(I believe you don't even know) that Daniel and his three companions did not bow to the king because he commanded something ungodly. Read the book of Daniel to find out.
I do know. And killing is not ungodly for the government - the government "does not bear the sword for nothing." I have considered that - I am not ignoring it.
joyful wrote:
You are proving your ignornance of the Scripture.
I have argued points of Scripture long and hard with other Trinitarians, and examined stories from all parts of the Bible. Accuse me of something else.
joyful wrote:
You are dying for your selfish desires and not for Jesus. Get real, dude.
I didn't say anything about what I was dying for. I could die choking on a chicken bone. I would still go to heaven. If you died choking on a chicken bone, wouldn't you be dying for your desire to eat?
joyful wrote:
You don't love God and Jesus. Your master is your government. You are only worshipping God with flattering lips. shame on you.
Again you accuse me. You are more of this world than I am. I am an Analyst - head in the clouds, no respect for reality, anchored in absolutes to the exception of everything that is not all-powerful. What do I care for government? I honor it only because God honors it. But cease accusing me - you do not see my nature. You see only what I say.
joyful wrote:
Blah, blah, blah. liies, lies and lies.
blah, blah, blah. lies, lies and lies.
good day satan's associate.
I pray that you repent and start serving God instead of satan before it is too late.
hitomi
Good day yourself, Accuser Or Conqueror, rather. I know that one of your nature will lose interest in logic from time to time. I can accept that - perhaps we can have a rest in the fellowship section. _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
True. But again, it is possible to love and yet kill. God loved Ananias and Sapphira. He also killed them.
Killing is God's work and not anyone elses. That is where you are so warped. When Jesus said "Love your neighbor", He said that to love him is to DO GOOD to him.
God did not "love" Annias and Sapphira in that way: the Bible says God hates the wicked.
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I'm a mere college student. But in my experience, the Trinity is not the only thing the Trinitarians care about. The Virgin Birth and the Resurrection are important as well (you can tell by the capitalization ).
You trinitarians only emphasise the trinity. All you have to know is trinty and accept it and you can be a pastor.
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Defeat my philosophical basis. You say to take it as it is meant - but you really mean that I should take it the way you tell me to take it. My knowledge of English and logic is all the preconceived notion I need.
I have talked to many, many trinitarians in my 9 years of Christianity. They dont know Gospel at all. that's why they don't have any guilty feeling about practice of military. Trinitarians are selling their souls to satan.
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Ad hominenem! It does not good to insult me.
It is not insult, It is only a fact.
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But there is no reason that killing whould be any different in the New Testament than in the Old Testament - God does not change, and he did not tell us that the law was changing for us. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.
How many time do I have to repeat myself? God is the only one who has right to destroy anyone, no one else, period.
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But it's particularly important that there is no reason for the law to change. It would not change randomly...
Jesus did not change anything. He came down to show us how we follow God. His father says to listen to Him. So listen to Jesus; He says to "do good to your enemy", not to kill them.
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I do know. And killing is not ungodly for the government - the government "does not bear the sword for nothing." I have considered that - I am not ignoring it.
You are disobeying God and obeying your wicked government.
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I have argued points of Scripture long and hard with other Trinitarians, and examined stories from all parts of the Bible. Accuse me of something else.
You are phoney Christion. You are not Jesus' follower. You are follower of your government.
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I didn't say anything about what I was dying for. I could die choking on a chicken bone. I would still go to heaven. If you died choking on a chicken bone, wouldn't you be dying for your desire to eat?
If you die now you are not entering into God's kingdom for sure. Repent while you still have chance.
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Again you accuse me. You are more of this world than I am. I am an Analyst - head in the clouds, no respect for reality, anchored in absolutes to the exception of everything that is not all-powerful. What do I care for government? I honor it only because God honors it. But cease accusing me - you do not see my nature. You see only what I say.
You are what you say. You have been falsely witnessing about Gospel. Stop falsely witnessing.
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Good day yourself, Accuser
I will fight a good fight to defend Jesus' Gospel. Trinitarians disgrace and wash down Jesus' messages big time. I do my best to spread Him truthfully.
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Somewhere beyond here...
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:32 am Post subject:
joyful wrote:
Killing is God's work and not anyone elses. That is where you are so warped. When Jesus said "Love your neighbor", He said that to love him is to DO GOOD to him.
God did not "love" Annias and Sapphira in that way: the Bible says God hates the wicked.
Ah, you mean two different types of love. But now you are on shaky ground. How are you to know which kind of love the Bible is referring to in any given place?
Love for your neighbor is an Old Testament teaching, from a book of the Bible that commanded the death penalty in several places. There must be some time when it is right for a human to kill.
God had his plan from the very beginning - he does not change. Things that are right for Jews are not wrong for Christians.
joyful wrote:
You trinitarians only emphasise the trinity. All you have to know is trinty and accept it and you can be a pastor.
Not true. Every church has its own requirements, but I know that my current knowledge and experience would not get me in as a pastor, unless I founded my own church (so that I could declare myself pastor).
joyful wrote:
I have talked to many, many trinitarians in my 9 years of Christianity. They dont know Gospel at all. that's why they don't have any guilty feeling about practice of military. Trinitarians are selling their souls to satan.
You must have talked to some odd Trinitarians if they couldn't recite Scripture. If they could, why do you say they don't know the Gospel? Is it only because they support the military?
joyful wrote:
It is not insult, It is only a fact.
No, it is not a verifiable fact. Stick to what you can defend. Can you prove that I am arrogant and wicked?
joyful wrote:
How many time do I have to repeat myself? God is the only one who has right to destroy anyone, no one else, period.
That is false. (Deuteronomy 20:16-18) Just a reminder, we've been over this before - it's easy to prove that killing was right at times in the Old Testament.
joyful wrote:
Jesus did not change anything. He came down to show us how we follow God. His father says to listen to Him. So listen to Jesus; He says to "do good to your enemy", not to kill them.
If killing was right in the Old Testament, and Jesus did not change anything, then killing is right today.
It is certainly possible to kill in love. If I attempt to kill you without good cause, kill me. Better that you should kill righteously than that I should commit murder. Love is not meant for the body - it is meant for the soul, for the person.
joyful wrote:
You are disobeying God and obeying your wicked government.
I am not in the military! I am believing Paul, who I believe spoke for God when he said that the government has authority to punish wrongdoing.
joyful wrote:
Viperlord wrote:
I have argued points of Scripture long and hard with other Trinitarians, and examined stories from all parts of the Bible. Accuse me of something else.
You are phoney Christion. You are not Jesus' follower. You are follower of your government.
Good choice. But those aren't true either.
joyful wrote:
If you die now you are not entering into God's kingdom for sure. Repent while you still have chance.
Hold on - this is as bad as ostracizing over the Trinity. Is it necessary to be right about everything to go to heaven? Jesus did not come to earth to end war - he came to seek and to save the lost.
joyful wrote:
You are what you say. You have been falsely witnessing about Gospel. Stop falsely witnessing.
More like I am what I think. Witnessing? My purpose here is one of two things - either you must change your mind, or I must. I seek certainty - I would be delighted to know with certainty that I am wrong, so that I can change. But I must be certain, and that requires much logic.
I would not consider this witnessing, since we are both saved already.
joyful wrote:
I will fight a good fight to defend Jesus' Gospel. Trinitarians disgrace and wash down Jesus' messages big time. I do my best to spread Him truthfully.
Fight well. But your goal is not to wound me, is it? Please, stop making accusations. I do not have the same tolerance for aggression that you have. _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
Ah, you mean two different types of love. But now you are on shaky ground. How are you to know which kind of love the Bible is referring to in any given place?
Killing is not permitted, period. Only God can destroy anyone. Keep that in your head.
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Love for your neighbor is an Old Testament teaching, from a book of the Bible that commanded the death penalty in several places. There must be some time when it is right for a human to kill.
So many are washed down or misunderstood. That's why Jesus had to correct when He came to earth.
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God had his plan from the very beginning - he does not change. Things that are right for Jews are not wrong for Christians.
the same as the above. don't make excuses.
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Not true. Every church has its own requirements, but I know that my current knowledge and experience would not get me in as a pastor, unless I founded my own church (so that I could declare myself pastor).
Many people doing that too. Pastors have to follow all their denominational requirements and it is not biblical or they would not produce so many luke warm churchgoers.
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You must have talked to some odd Trinitarians if they couldn't recite Scripture. If they could, why do you say they don't know the Gospel? Is it only because they support the military?
If they know the Gospel they would not support the military. End of discussion.
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No, it is not a verifiable fact. Stick to what you can defend. Can you prove that I am arrogant and wicked?
Yes, because you defend arrogant and wicked trinitarians. You are what you are by your association.
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That is false. (Deuteronomy 20:16-18) Just a reminder, we've been over this before - it's easy to prove that killing was right at times in the Old Testament.
I told you I don't debate. Everything I say is my convictions. I don't debate my convictions. got it?
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killing was right in the Old Testament, and Jesus did not change anything, then killing is right today.
You don't seem to be too bright. I already explained that.
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It is certainly possible to kill in love. If I attempt to kill you without good cause, kill me. Better that you should kill righteously than that I should commit murder. Love is not meant for the body - it is meant for the soul, for the person.
Then how do you explain when Jesus wept for one dead girl? Death makes Jesus so sad even though He was going to raise her back to life. thats how much Jesus cherish lives. You don't know Jesus.
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I am not in the military! I am believing Paul, who I believe spoke for God when he said that the government has authority to punish wrongdoing.
You don't believe anything about the Bible. You don't know Jesus. It is all or nothing, dude.
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Hold on - this is as bad as ostracizing over the Trinity. Is it necessary to be right about everything to go to heaven? Jesus did not come to earth to end war - he came to seek and to save the lost.
He came down to teach us how to love. God and Jesus is all about love. If we are true beliver we will learn from Jesus and we are saved. without knowing Jesus' love we are forever lost.
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More like I am what I think. Witnessing? My purpose here is one of two things - either you must change your mind, or I must. I seek certainty - I would be delighted to know with certainty that I am wrong, so that I can change. But I must be certain, and that requires much logic.
I don't think you are seeking the truth. You will find the truth from the Bible because Holy Spirit will help you. but you don't seem to be sincere Jesus' follower. You cannot see hypocrisy and you don't mind contirbuting to it.
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I would not consider this witnessing, since we are both saved already.
We are saved if we are faithful to Jesus until the end. You are not even trying to be Jesus' truthful desciple. You are not even taking the first step yet. You are only fooling yourself.
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Fight well. But your goal is not to wound me, is it? Please, stop making accusations. I do not have the same tolerance for aggression that you have.
I am only defending Jesus' messages which you are trying to wash down.
Many people doing that too. Pastors have to follow all their denominational requirements and it is not biblical or they would not produce so many luke warm churchgoers.
Why don't you found your own church?
joyful wrote:
I told you I don't debate. Everything I say is my convictions. I don't debate my convictions. got it?
Oh... wow... I can't change my mind just because you have convictions. Seriously, that by itself doesn't change anything - for me, anyway. I change my mind by debating... Well, can you accept that neither of us is going to change, and that we will simply be describing things to each other?
joyful wrote:
Then how do you explain when Jesus wept for one dead girl? Death makes Jesus so sad even though He was going to raise her back to life. thats how much Jesus cherish lives. You don't know Jesus.
Death is sad, but evil? That is another matter. Everyone dies sometime. If it were wrong for people to die, we would not die of old age.
[quote="joyful]You don't believe anything about the Bible. You don't know Jesus. It is all or nothing, dude.[/quote]
Take a moment to see what I do believe. I believe that you have misunderstood the Bible, and that I am serving Jesus fully. We are people of different kinds, each meant by God for a different purpose. I seek out all possibilities, testing them against the undeniable to seek out what I can be certain of. You are a mighty warrior, taking certainty as a tool - no one can defeat you. But I do not even see that as a good thing - I say, better to be able to change! But I understand that your place is just as valuable as mine.
joyful wrote:
He came down to teach us how to love. God and Jesus is all about love. If we are true beliver we will learn from Jesus and we are saved. without knowing Jesus' love we are forever lost.
That I am a Trinitarian, is a small thing. God is about love, certainly - he is also about power, knowledge, wisdom, peace, creativity and truth. All good things come from God.
Yes, I believe. I may not agree with you on the military and the Trinity, but those are small things. I know of my sin, and I know that Jesus has saved me. He pulled me out of pornography - you know what a terrible snare that can be.
joyful wrote:
I don't think you are seeking the truth. You will find the truth from the Bible because Holy Spirit will help you. but you don't seem to be sincere Jesus' follower. You cannot see hypocrisy and you don't mind contirbuting to it.
I know my God. I have that certainty already. I know that you would call every church I have ever attended hypocritical - but I see you as one cut off from the body, starving but loyal.
According to my calculations, thinking from both sides at once is painful for you - but I really don't know how else to go about it.
joyful wrote:
We are saved if we are faithful to Jesus until the end. You are not even trying to be Jesus' truthful desciple. You are not even taking the first step yet. You are only fooling yourself.
What is the first step? _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
But God commanded humans to kill at certain times. So it is not always true that humans must not kill.
You see what I mean? I already refuted this and you still arguing about it. I tell you again since you are so slow to listen, Daniel and his three companions did not bow to their king he made the law to do it. You are bowing to your government when you enlist to military. Read the book of Daniel which you don't seem to know about it or you are ignoring delibrately which seems to be the case.
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Why don't you found your own church?
It is in my testimony. You seem to be here to just pick a fight like teen ager, how old are you?
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Oh... wow... I can't change my mind just because you have convictions.
You are not here try to change your mind, I can see that vividly, fess up, dude.
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Death is sad, but evil?
who ways death is evil. You are desparate for fight.
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Take a moment to see what I do believe.
I am not interested in what you believe. You are obviously disgracing Jesus' name with your hypocrisy.
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That I am a Trinitarian, is a small thing.
It is big enought that you will die for your country and kill your enemy against Jesus command.
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I know my God.
Your god is your man-made docrine and your government.
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What is the first step?
to commit to Jesus instead of your man-made doctrine and your government.
Of course you don't realize what it takes to commit to Jesus since you are not honestly seeking the truth. Now, everything I say is all my convictions, take it or leave it. You are continutally asing the same thing over and over, it is getting old, dude.
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Somewhere beyond here...
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject:
joyful wrote:
You see what I mean? I already refuted this and you still arguing about it. I tell you again since you are so slow to listen, Daniel and his three companions did not bow to their king he made the law to do it. You are bowing to your government when you enlist to military. Read the book of Daniel which you don't seem to know about it or you are ignoring delibrately which seems to be the case.
But in Deuteronomy, it was not merely the government's command to kill. It was God's.
joyful wrote:
It is in my testimony. You seem to be here to just pick a fight like teen ager, how old are you?
Good call. I'll turn 20 this month.
joyful wrote:
You are not here try to change your mind, I can see that vividly, fess up, dude.
It's unlikely that I will change my mind - but I came here to change either my mind or yours, it doesn't matter which. I want to be reconciled with you on matters of doctrine - but I have too great a respect for truth to believe something before it is proven to me. Unfortunately, while I've been discussing doctrine with you, I've been researching the issues, and it seems clear that the military and trinity are both right. Still, I hold out hope.
I wish that all the body of Christ could agree, but it is difficult.
joyful wrote:
who ways death is evil. You are desparate for fight.
I thought you did.
joyful wrote:
I am not interested in what you believe. You are obviously disgracing Jesus' name with your hypocrisy.
If it were obvious, then I would believe you.
joyful wrote:
It is big enought that you will die for your country and kill your enemy against Jesus command.
No it isn't.
I will never kill my enemy, then; I promise you that. It is not an important thing to me - I can give up killing merely at a friend's request. Because I do not kill, I cannot even fight. I don't defend my own right to kill; I defend others' rights to kill.
joyful wrote:
Your god is your man-made docrine and your government.
When I say that Jesus is my God, I worship him by doing so, and so make him my God.
joyful wrote:
to commit to Jesus instead of your man-made doctrine and your government.
Of course you don't realize what it takes to commit to Jesus since you are not honestly seeking the truth. Now, everything I say is all my convictions, take it or leave it. You are continutally asing the same thing over and over, it is getting old, dude.
Your words are painful - I have prayed to God many times, asking him to show me what I must do. Every word that came to me like a prophecy, I tested, and found to be a lie. But meanwhile, I have come to understand love - I am here for the benefit of others.
I am committed to Jesus. I know, above all, that God is sovereign, and that his word cannot be broken. If that is man-made doctrine, I apologize, but it is the only way that I am able to make God first in my life. As far as my government goes, if Washington D.C. was hit by a nuclear bomb tomorrow, I would merely be annoyed at the loss of my own comfort. I obey the government only for God's sake. _________________ Socionics - the Analyst!
But in Deuteronomy, it was not merely the government's command to kill. It was God's.
here you go again, repeating yourself. I am losing my patience. This is the last time, if you repeat this nonsense you will be banned because you are wasing my time and forum space.
GOD HAS RIGHT OR ORDER TO KILL ANY EVIL; NO ANY HUMAN HAS RIGHT TO ORDER AND KILL ANYONE. YOU GOT THAT????
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Good call. I'll turn 20 this month.
My son is 20 and I don't have any problem talking to him about the Scripture. You are hard hearted. You should open up to the truth.
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It's unlikely that I will change my mind - but I came here to change either my mind or yours,
I am losing my patience with your arrogance. you better watch out. I will not let you harrass me with repetitious question and comments.. If you cannnot take it what I have to offer, just leave, you got that?
joyful wrote:
I am not interested in what you believe. You are obviously disgracing Jesus' name with your hypocrisy.
[quote]If it were obvious, then I would believe you. [/qote]
You should but you are hard hearted and have pride, so you would not do it
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I will never kill my enemy, then; I promise you that. It is not an important thing to me - I can give up killing merely at a friend's request. Because I do not kill, I cannot even fight. I don't defend my own right to kill; I defend others' rights to kill.
This is another repetitious comments.
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When I say that Jesus is my God, I worship him by doing so, and so make him my God.
You are lying, period.
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Your words are painful
I am just telling like it is. I will not sugarcoat the truth like trinitarians.
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I am committed to Jesus.
repetition. Your god is your government and your man-made theologies. You trinitatrians are lip server. end of conversation. now, take it or leave it.
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George Bush is the government. If the government is right to kill, then George Bush can be right to kill.
The government does not bear the sword for nothing... it is to punish wrongdoers, and to defend the righteous. The sword is a weapon of death.
).
That Jesus did not do it does not mean that we should not.
It does not good to insult me. But there is no reason that killing whould be any different in the New Testament than in the Old Testament - God does not change, and he did not tell us that the law was changing for us. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.
