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joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

Regarding "Alpha and Omega"

http://www.revelation-today.com/Ch1-Alpha.htm

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3 ESV[/b]

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

I might add that I have put together a statement of scriptures which can be found at:

http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=45

Also this:

http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=263

Of course, what the trinitarian does is then use the imaginative assumptions, indeed -- assumptions placed on top of assumptions -- that have become a part of the trinitarian dogma, and then place those assumptions over the scriptures so that, in some cases, they will have the scriptures end up saying almost the opposite of what they actually say.

Christian love,
Ronald

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

John 3
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1 John 5:9 (King James Version)
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Acts 4:30 (New International Version)
30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, "I a returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.""

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

Romans 1
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1
1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

Galatians 1
1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Philippians 1
1Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1 Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Philemon 1
1Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
2And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:
3Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

James 1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

2 John 1
1The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
3Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Jude 1
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

here is another Jesus' prayer to His Father:

And this is lasting life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3

Now IF you read what is offered, it becomes apparent that God and Christ are NOT THE SAME. The Father IS GOD HIMSELF and Christ IS Our LORD AND THE SON OF GOD.

raysondawn · Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 4 Location: TENNESSEE USA

I understand that the New testament is written in Greek, and as a result the words which appear in pen and ink often have a Greek leaning and not that of the Holy Ghost.
For example, at the seminaries which I attended for some time the words "Theos", "Theology", "Heremenutics", "Exegesis" and "Isogesis" are terms which are thrown around to dazzel the minds. Too often this robs one of the "simplicity of Christ". Simply stated, these terms have their origination in the Pantheon of Olympus or Greek mythology, and not in scripture, the writings, the prophets, gospels, and epsitles.

The word "theos" means "the study of the gods" and Hermes was the messenger god sent through pthyos the guardian at the Oracle of Delphi.

Having said all of this, Perhaps one can now see how the faith of Jesus Christ has systematically hijacked over the centuries and turned from the truth into the lie that doctrines such as "the trinity" have brought the church of God to the present condition that it is in.

The scripture from Genesis to Revelation teaches us that the image and likeness of God is seven primary spirits which emanate from Jesus Christ the Creator.

Those spirits represent the perfection of character and present to us the very image of God.

They are:
Wisdom
Counsel
Understanding
Spirit of the Lord
Fear of the Lord
Might
Knowledge

I will not provide the scriptures because I believe it is the job of disciples to search out the scriptures to see whether the things which they hear are so.

I will give a few of the the books.
Genesis
Proverbs
Isaiah
Ezekiel
Zechariah
Revelation

Type in "seven" or "seven spirits" in a bible search engine to make your seach a little quicker.

Happy Hunting!
_________________
Sanctify them through thy truth...
THY WORD IS TRUTH!

THE KING IS COMMING!

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

here is another Jesus' prayer to His Father:

And this is lasting life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3
_________________
YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

If you read all of John 8 it shows Jesus clearly stating that the God of the Jews is his God, so YHWH is the God of Jesus.
_________________
YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

What most trinitarians do is claim that Yahweh is three persons. According to their claim, sometimes Yahweh refers to their of idea of God the Son, while other times it refers to the Father, as well as their idea of the holy spirit as an alleged person of Yahweh. According this theory, there are three that all Yahweh, but yet there is only one Yahweh, in the same manner that they claim that God is three persons, but yet that there is only God.

Christian love,
Ronald
_________________
YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord

joyful · Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: texas

So lets start with the ‘terms’ themselves used in the doctrine. We do not find the terms trinity, triune, Jehovah-Jesus, God-man in the bible. We also never see it written as God the Son but rather Son of God, same with the expression God the Holy Spirit is not found but written as the spirit of God or just Holy Spirit. So I have to ask the question if this doctrine is so definitely put forth in scripture how do we not find the terms used to describe it?

While I don’t see the trinity doctrine expressed in any terms throughout the bible I do see the ‘authority’ or ‘sole divinity’ of the ‘Father’ is stated rather clearly. We see only 3 instances of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being mentioned in connection in the bible. If this was the very basis of ‘Christianity’ why is it so obscure? Let’s look at these passages.

First, I should correct this statement and point out that really we only have two passages. 1 John 5:7. This verse has been ‘proven’ to have been added later. This verse is not found in any of the early Greek manuscripts only later in the Latin transcripts. So now we are down to only passages referencing the 3 together in connection.

Matthew 28:19 mentions the three together in baptism. Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. While they are all mentioned, they are not expressed as three persons. In fact it doesn’t even say they are persons at all. Does it say that they constitute one God? No. Does it say that each is God? No. Does it say they are equal or to be worshipped? No. As it doesn’t assert any of these it is not teaching the doctrine of the trinity.

II Corinthians 13:14. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. This doesn’t say that each is God, or equal, or that they are all to be worshipped, or that altogether they constitute one. It does however almost deny that these would be true. It does not speak of the Father, Son, and Spirit, but of Jesus Christ and God and the Holy Spirit. Do you see the difference? Would a Trinitarian express himself in these words and in this order, when intending to express his doctrine?

So, from what I can tell, the doctrine itself is not taught directly. Would it then be taught indirectly and by implication? I have to ask why this would be the case when the doctrine that the Father alone is God above all is taught directly and explicitly? This is easily supported by scripture.

1) John 17:3. This is life eternal, that they might know THEE, THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
(2) Mark 13:32. But of that day and hour knoweth no man; no, not the angels which are in heaven; NEITHER THE SON; but the Father.
(3) I Timothy 2:5. There is one God and, one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
(4) I Corinthians 8:6. But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER, of whom are all things and we in Him; and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him.
(5) Ephesians 4:5-6. ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism, ONE GOD AND FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I have to ask if it is so explicitly stated throughout the NT the the Father is above all why would we use obscure texts to try and prove the doctrine of the trinity?

Lets go now to what Jesus says about himself. Do any of these statements imply that he is the same as the Almighty God?

"I came not to do mine own will."
"I can of myself do nothing."
"The Son can do nothing of himself."
"The Father that is in me, he doeth the works."
He calls himself, "he whom the Father hath sanctified and sent."
He says, "I am come in my Father's name."
And after his resurrection he says, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God."

What about the testimony of the Apostles?

"Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God, by signs and wonders which God did by him."
"Appointed to be a Prince and Saviour."
"at the right hand of God exalted."
"made both Lord and Christ."
Because of his obedience unto death, "God hath highly exalted him and given him a name above every name."
In the end he shall "deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father, that God may be all in all."

I don’t think they were putting forth that they believed Jesus to be God Almighty here either.
Peter confessed, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God" and Jesus was ok with that. Martha confessed, “I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God" and nothing more was required. Here are some statements from John.

"These are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God."
"Whoso believeth that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God."
"He that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." (will overcome the world)

I have to ask why does it seem clear that those spreading the Word were teaching that belief that Jesus was the Son of God was sufficient if in fact they believed him to be the Almighty God?

Now in reference to the Holy Spirit it is said to be poured out, shed, given, given without measure, men are baptized in it, filled with it and partake of it. Hardly seems like descriptions describing a ‘person.’ Here are a couple references regarding Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

"God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy spirit and with power."
"Jesus received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost."
"God giveth not the spirit by measure unto him."
"He that raised up Christ from the dead, shall also quicken your mortal bodies by the spirit that dwelleth in you."

Doesn’t seem like they are claiming Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be the same ‘person’ are they? It would almost make these statements absurd if they are truly regarding one ‘person.’

Paul who wrote much of the NT doesn’t even mention that in his conversion that his beliefs went from Jesus being a blasphemer to Jesus being God Almighty. His words would indicate the opposite actually.

"I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
"Making mention of you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom."

So while the NT contains expressions of gratitude and reverence in regards to Jesus, it is directed to him as the Son of God and all supreme worship is reserved for the Father. Jesus himself worshipped the Father. The language of the Apostles was, "Giving thanks always to God, even the Father, through Jesus Christ." And when honor was bestowed on the Son it was always “to the glory of the Father.”

I also have to ask here if the Apostles believed Jesus Christ to be the God of their fathers, the one true God how could Peter have denied him, Judas betrayed him, and all forsaken him? Could he been accused of blasphemy? "Because thou, being a man, makest thyself God." To this statement even Jesus denied claiming only to be the son of God. How does one claim the trinity doctrine when Jesus himself refuted that, he being a man made himself God?
_________________
YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord

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